Can we cut tarmac along boundary with pavement to install edging?

scottishblondie

We're in the process of taking down a hedge that has been hiding a wrought iron fence for 20+ years.  We have several sections of wall along the property boundary that the fence is fixed to, so I'm pretty sure that the wall can be taken as our boundary.  When the pavement has been resurfaced in the past it looks like they've just pushed the tarmac in as far as it would go under the edge of the hedge, so it's all wonky and there is tarmac on our side of the boundary.  Now we've exposed the fence, we want to install a concrete edging along the boundary (and another inside the fence) to retain a new strip of gravel under the fence that will be easier to maintain.

However, I'm not sure what the deal is with cutting a line along the boundary to dig out the tarmac that is on our property.  It's not on a solid base (just soil) and it seems like it would be pretty easy to remove once separated from the actual pavement.  Do I need to seek permission from the council to cut it?  Or as it's on our property can I just remove it?  

Also City Fibre came about 2 months ago and installed fibre in our area, and they've managed to install one of their little access point things halfway onto our property - not sure why as they would have had to battle the hedge to put in underneath.  I hadn't noticed until now as I wasn't able to see it.  Can we ask them to come back and move it?  As it stands it's in the way of where we want to put the edging and having to go around it would be a bit of a pain.

twopenny

The city fibre thing you could write to them asking for rent 
Can you post a photo of the tarmac and wall?
How did tarmac get through a wall? If the wall is your boundary. Or is the fence in front of the wall?
And how are you proposing to cut it?
Frankly I can't see that anyone would know if you removed it well. Presumably they didn't know that they'd pushed it onto your property.

scottishblondie

I’ll try and get a picture later.  Sorry the description isn’t very clear! There are sections of wall about 30cm thick, maybes a metre wide and 10m apart and the fence is bolted to these. I guess they are to provide stability to the fence. 

The tarmac runs up to the walls, the fence is in the middle of the walls so set back about 15cm from the boundary. I want to put the edging in line with the walls. 

Bendy_House

scottishblondie said:

I’ll try and get a picture later.  Sorry the description isn’t very clear! There are sections of wall about 30cm thick, maybes a metre wide and 10m apart and the fence is bolted to these. I guess they are to provide stability to the fence. 

The tarmac runs up to the walls, the fence is in the middle of the walls so set back about 15cm from the boundary. I want to put the edging in line with the walls. 

Almost certainly your boundary will be on the outer edge of your wall sections. (Possibly, but unlikely, it could even be beyond this, but your deeds would have to indicate this.) 
So can you cut that tarmac along that line? Almost certainly, yes.
The City Fibre thing must be annoying! Are they 'trespassing'? Yes. Are they allowed to? I strongly suspect not, unless it is serving your property? 
I guess they were trying to get it tucked away under the hedge as far as possible, and in that spot they ID'd the fence as being the boundary line, not realising there were thicker walls either side.
How intrusive/awkward is it?

Bendy_House

I wonder what the most neat way to cut the tarmac could be? Slow use of an angle-grinder? With a light spray of water? Bearing in mind that it's tar-based so could be messy if heated by the cutting.
Also, as you suspect, it'll likely be a thin layer at the edges. This could mean that any 'percussive' cutting action could damage it up along the intended line, and give a messy edge. So a gentle 'slicing' method would likely be best.
I'm sure it can be patched neatly afterwards against your concrete edging if needed - you can buy small packs of 'cold' patching tarmac.

Section62

Bendy_House said:

I wonder what the most neat way to cut the tarmac could be? Slow use of an angle-grinder? With a light spray of water? Bearing in mind that it's tar-based so could be messy if heated by the cutting.
Also, as you suspect, it'll likely be a thin layer at the edges. This could mean that any 'percussive' cutting action could damage it up along the intended line, and give a messy edge. So a gentle 'slicing' method would likely be best.
I'm sure it can be patched neatly afterwards against your concrete edging if needed - you can buy small packs of 'cold' patching tarmac.

Unlikely it will contain tar.  More likely bitumen.

The professional way to cut it is using a diamond disc cutter with forced water lubrication/cooling/dust supression.  But not many people have one of these in their DIY toolkit.  They can be hired, although it might work out easier/cheaper to get someone in to do the cutting and edging installation.

Strictly speaking it is an offence to break open the surface of a highway (unless the highway authority give their consent) - which almost certainly will be necessary to install concrete edging that will last.  It needs concrete bed and surround to stop it moving, concreting it on only one side will mean over time it will move.

Bendy_House said:

The City Fibre thing must be annoying! Are they 'trespassing'? Yes. Are they allowed to? I strongly suspect not, unless it is serving your property?

Surely that depends where the highway boundary is?  It could be that the wall is 'trespassing' on the highway, after all, scottishblondie is only "pretty sure that the wall can be taken as our boundary" rather than having established that as a fact.  And if they are 'allowed' to do this then it won't be a trespass.

Personally I wouldn't go demanding a statutory undertaker removes their equipment from my property before being able to prove that it was in fact my property - it could open a can of worms.

It might be more diplomatic to stop the edging either side of the access box (or whatever it is) - we'd commonly do this at the back edge of new footways because it was so much easier and cheaper than trying to get utility companies to move their equipment.

MattMattMattUK

Bendy_House said:

I wonder what the most neat way to cut the tarmac could be? Slow use of an angle-grinder? With a light spray of water? Bearing in mind that it's tar-based so could be messy if heated by the cutting.
Also, as you suspect, it'll likely be a thin layer at the edges. This could mean that any 'percussive' cutting action could damage it up along the intended line, and give a messy edge. So a gentle 'slicing' method would likely be best.
I'm sure it can be patched neatly afterwards against your concrete edging if needed - you can buy small packs of 'cold' patching tarmac.

Circular saw with constant water flow, obviously one designed to be waterproof.

Bendy_House

Section62 said:

Bendy_House said:

The City Fibre thing must be annoying! Are they 'trespassing'? Yes. Are they allowed to? I strongly suspect not, unless it is serving your property?

Surely that depends where the highway boundary is?  It could be that the wall is 'trespassing' on the highway, after all, scottishblondie is only "pretty sure that the wall can be taken as our boundary" rather than having established that as a fact.  And if they are 'allowed' to do this then it won't be a trespass.

Of course. SB's boundary could be half-way over that tarmac paving. Or down the middle of the road. Or on planet S62.

Your comments above did not counter anything I actually said.

Section62

Bendy_House said:

Section62 said:

Bendy_House said:

The City Fibre thing must be annoying! Are they 'trespassing'? Yes. Are they allowed to? I strongly suspect not, unless it is serving your property?

Surely that depends where the highway boundary is?  It could be that the wall is 'trespassing' on the highway, after all, scottishblondie is only "pretty sure that the wall can be taken as our boundary" rather than having established that as a fact.  And if they are 'allowed' to do this then it won't be a trespass.

Of course. SB's boundary could be half-way over that tarmac paving. Or down the middle of the road. Or on planet S62.

Your comments above did not counter anything I actually said.

Just pointing out it is an open question - not a given - that there is a 'trespass' involved.

"Yes" doesn't mean "possibly". The latter being the only realistic answer given the limited information available so far.

The location of scottishblondie's property boundary could be in the middle of the road, but that isn't relevant, what counts is where the highway boundary is. The two aren't the same.

Bendy_House

'Yes' was based on it being her land. In which case, are they technically trespassing? Did they seek permission?

Are you suggesting that SB seeks the advice of a surveyor before delineating her land based on the outside edge of her wall? Or should she play 'safe' and stagger her new concrete border to follow the walls and railings. Or what?

Just how much trouble should she go before undertaking this basic edging task?

Anyhoo, must dash - Openreach have just planted a BT box right in the middle of my drive...

Section62

Bendy_House said:

'Yes' was based on it being her land. In which case, are they technically trespassing? Did they seek permission?

That makes more sense, but again, you are missing the point that "her land" and the land the utility company are allowed to put equipment in (with or without prior permission) are not the same thing.  Highway and utility law are complicated, it isn't a case of assuming there is one boundary and only one possible answer.  Hence my suggestion that scottishblondie exercises some caution before accusing anyone of 'trespass' (see the next point)

Bendy_House said:

Are you suggesting that SB seeks the advice of a surveyor before delineating her land based on the outside edge of her wall? Or should she play 'safe' and stagger her new concrete border to follow the walls and railings. Or what?

See my previous post.  I suggested an "or what" which would side-step what might become a bigger problem.  It didn't involve getting advice from a surveyor, or any staggering.

Bendy_House said:

Just how much trouble should she go before undertaking this basic edging task?

I guess that's something of a philosophical question.  Should citizens at least seek to work within the law, or should they do what they please, based on assumptions made by people on the internet who haven't even seen a picture of the issue?  That could be debated for pages and pages.

The answer probably differs between a case where there is just 'basic edging' needing to be put in, and a case where it is alleged utility equipment is 'trespassing' the presence of which makes the edging task less 'basic'.

Bendy_House said:

Anyhoo, must dash - Openreach have just planted a BT box right in the middle of my drive...

If you've ever had a telecoms service provided by BT/Openreach then they are probably within their rights - check your old BT/Telco contracts before accusing them of anything.